My opinion: Top Hat 25 vs Endeavour 27

[Troppo]

Here's a quick cruising perspective comparing my previous boat, an Endeavour 27 with my new Top Hat 25. I describe it as it currently is and I do not discuss any ideas for improvement.

If you are wondering about buying a Top Hat for cruising, my experience, limited as it is, may prove useful to you.

Cockpit:

Overall space: The cockpits of both boats were reasonably the same size ('though I did not run a tape measure over them). But there are major differences. The Endeavour had about two foot of stern deck area which held the mainsail traveller and tiller. On the Top Hat, the tiller comes up out of the floor in front of the outboard motor well. In practical terms, when on the move the Top Hat cockpit feels cramped in comparison. When anchored, the Top Hat tiller tilts back so increases useable area.

Storage: The Endeavour had no cockpit storage except for some kind of wet well in the floor which was as big as a small esky but I found it practically useless as bilge and cockpit drains went through it. The Top Hat has a port side locker under the seat. With Windchaser, this locker is fully sealed from the interior. It is huge and super useful. I used it for a 20 litre drinking water container and two twenty litre fuel containers plus other stuff. It could hold more. It also currently houses the main battery.

Companionway: The Endeavour has a sliding hatch over the companionway which I found fantastic. Another type of boat I had checked out without a companionway hatch I had found it difficult getting up and down from the cabin. So, the Top Hat has no sliding hatch but I was surprised that I had little problem getting up and down and over the month I have lived on Windchaser, I now find it easy. One benefit is that out at sea I had days of rough weather and the solid top of the companionway became a favourite place to hang on to especially when standing there and watching forward.

Cabin:

Overall space: Again, (and without using a tape measure) the main cabins of both seem about the same size. The layout was basically similar except the Endeavour had a little room for the head while Windchaser had a small hanging cupboard and portapotti under the v-berth. In practical and general terms, I found the Top Hat much easier to live in than the Endeavour as I will explain in more detail.

Storage: The Top Hat wins hands down with practical storage in the cabin. With no inboard motor and steps which swivelled up out of the way, the under-cockpit floor storage area was huge and easily accessible. I kept the spare and massive bruce anchor and chain under there with several water containers, spare rope and my toolbox. The starboard side quarter berth and table and seat are higher than the port side quarterberth which makes the storage space under them to be big indeed. And the arrangement of the storage hatches just seemed to work better than in the Endeavour.

On the port side of the Top Hat, there is no storage going under the cockpit as the cockpit locker takes up that space. I easily slept on the port side berth when the anchorages were rough and found this better than in the Endeavour where the berths run under the cockpit and I would feel a bit of claustraphobia being in a tunnel. In both boats, the table can drop down to form a bunk.

Overall, I found the storage in the Top Hat cabin much easier to use than the Endeavour, there seemed to be more of it and access was good.

Cooking and eating: The table in the Endeavour was larger than in the Top Hat but it has made no practical difference to me. The Top Hat sink has a drain area so it is bigger than the Endeavour which simply had the sink. The Top Hat cook area is behind the sink in a little 'cubby'. I was originally very skeptical about this arrangement as the steam and stuff from cooking has nowhere to go and it is a big reach across the sink. The Endeavour had a metho stove beside the sink and a sliding top which gave bench space.

The Endeavour, in my opinion possibly had a better cooking arrangement however it did have serious weaknesses. The sink had no drain area beside it so wet items had to either go in the sink or into a plastic basin. Not so with the Top Hat, I could wash up in the sink and let things drain and dry on the drain area.

Reaching over the sink to, in Windchaser's case, the butane stove, is a bit of a nuisance but not as bad as I originally thought it would be. Unfortunately, my wife, who has not been on board yet, has disability and would have problems reaching and stretching to the cooker with heavy saucepans.

Cooking in the Top Hat is made more difficult by the floor. It is not flat. There is a section in the middle of the cabin floor which is flat then it slopes up to the sides, most noticeable where the sink is. This means when I am reaching to put a pot on the stove, I try and move closer but can't because of the floor slope.

I found that by leaning and resting my hip agains the sink I was able to use the cooker more easily than trying to reach from the centre of the walkway.

In comparison, the Endeavour had a flat floor and there was insignificant reaching. However, the flat floor was raised at this point so I could not stand fully erect, which I can do in the Top Hat. In fact, the cook area in the Top Hat seems spacious to me, and I like that feel of good 'elbow space'. After a month of using it, I use it happily, though I know it can be improved.

V-berth:

In the Endeavour, the doorway to the v-berth was much bigger and the length of the berth longer, about seven foot. I was concerned I would find the Top Hat v-berth pokey and claustrophobic. Not the case. With the hatch open the v-berth is very well ventilated. And while speaking of the hatch, I love it. When it is raining I can shut it down on a small block of wood that allows a gap for breeze but no water comes in.

The length of the Endeavour berth comes from it running right up to the point of the bow whereas in the Top Hat, there is a hatch and storage area up there. That arrangement in the Endeavour did not provide any extra benefits to me, I like the Top Hat better.

Another positive for the Top Hat is the lack of liner. The Endeavour had a nice liner that only went half-way forward in the v-berth. I found the large gap where the liner ended was difficult for cleaning out the mold which grew in this hard-to-get area. The Top Hat has lumpy fibreglass in the v-berth but the whole area is easy to clean.

Storage in the Top Hat v-berth is another big positive over the Endeavour. The Endeavour had side cupboards with only one hatch each side to access it. The Top Hat has three hatches each side allowing better use of space.

And underneath the bed is a surprising amount of space. First is the big area towards the front of the berth where I stored a fifteen litre bottle of water plus electric drill in its plastic 'suitcase' and a very long extension cord. All easy to get in and out. Then, there is the area where the portapotti goes. Plenty of room for it, however, I originally bought the largest portapotti but it is just a bit too high so I had to exchange for a shorter one.

In front of the portapotti section is more storage accessible from the main cabin just by reaching down. I kept the rubbish bucket here plus other stuff. There is also storage to the side of the portapotti area which I found easy to access.

In the Endeavour, under the bed was a water bladder and I can't recall what else. In the Top Hat, the built-in water container makes for a huge increase in useable space under the bunk.

Overall, the Top Hat v-berth is smaller than in the Endeavour 27 but in practical terms is, in my opinion, far superior. In the Endeavour, I had problems with where to put the extra water I carried (I prefer rain water for drinking) but in the Top Hat I can easily put a week's worth of fresh rain water under the v-berth. I pull out five litres at a time and keep the small container in the main cabin.

The head: The Endeavour had a separate room for the head. Since the sink did not have working plumbing, I had pulled it out. And I took the door off since there was no ventilation at all in it and the door got in the way. The portapotti sat on the floor but since the floor was not flat I had some troubles keeping it from moving in heavy seas. Much of the space in the little room was wasted. With a water bottle or two in there, it was awkward. Overall, it was inconventient.

I thought the Top Hat set-up under the main bunk would be a problem. In practice it worked very well. However, I have only travelled solo on Windchaser.

Moving the bed linen and cushions and boards to get to the portapoti takes only a moment. The portapotti is then very easy to access. In fact, it makes a nice head. It really is not difficult to convert, especially when I consider that when I was in Southport Marina and the toilet block was a round trip of 1,100 steps I took far longer doing that walk.

Deck:

The Top Hat deck works for me and I don't think it is any better or worse than the Endeavour. I have found it easy to get from the cockpit up and along the side deck to the bow. In some other boats I looked at, I found that exercise more difficult as the side walkway was not very wide.

In summary, I confess I had overlooked the Top Hat as a suitable boat for doing some cruising because I perceived a variety of shortcomings. When I seriously looked at the Top Hat I realised many of my original opinions were wrong. So I got one. Now after a month's onboard experience, I am astonished at what the Top Hat can offer. It is seriously a big boat in a small package.

[Dolphin]

Good comparison Mr Troppo. I like it.
Here is a link to a picture comparing the underwater profiles of both the Top Hat and the Endeavour.
That is the boat I race on in Summer.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=629

[Rod]

Thanks Mr Troppo. Wanting to buy a Th myself and love other opinions. I currently have a Tasman 26, very good but not enough headroom, bunk is too short. Can't wait for your next installment.

[storm petrel]

Very interesting. How do you compare the sailing abilities, seaworthiness and sea kindliness of the two boats?

Cheers,
Mark
Storm Petrel

[Troppo]

Ha, Mark, that question is outside my area of competence . However, here are some comments, though please remember apart from sailing a Mirror dinghy I have only had limited sailing experience with the Endeavour 27 and my new Top Hat.

The tiller of the Endeavour 27 was very light so I was shocked with Windchaser as the tiller is what I would call heavy. Don't know if that is normal (any feedback anyone?).

I have not gone into the wind against serious chop or waves like I did with the Endeavour. On the points of sail I had her on, I found Windchaser to be surprisingly seaworthy and sea kindly. Here are some examples.

When I was first motoring out from Southport, there were some huge motor vessels that zoomed past. Some slowed, some moved away, one came close, I think on purpose as he also 'buzzed' an anchored dinghy with two people fishing. The wake I estimate to be a metre and it was steep. I steered Windchaser to angle across it rather than be rolled by it from the side. The bow shot up and slammed down as I went over the wake, a few things crashed in the cabin, I expected water over the nose but the bow stopped short of going under and came up dry. That surprised me.

Going up to Mooloolaba, high winds and swells were forecast for the next day and so I raced up with the waves building and the wind dead behind me. I mostly motored and used the jib when I could. I am not skilled enough to have poled out the jib or sailed it better so relied on the motor. Most of the swell was 1.5 to 2 metres. There were some in the 3 metre range and a couple I estimate were about 4 metres. These were huge and wide-based so even though from the side were not a problem at all. Bit scarey when they went past and as I went down behind them I could see the wave rising up like a wall as it moved away and the horizon with quite a few degrees of sky going too. The boat handled all that with no drama.

Going across the Wide Bay Bay to get behind Fraser Island was difficult. Even though the weather had been improving when I made the attempt, I still encountered on the bar itself, breaking waves to 3 metres (tops curling into foam not the whole wave breaking), then in the 'mad mile' there was very serious churning from everywhich way with maybe peaks of between 1.5 and 2 metres but it was all slop. On the bar, I had no waves break on me though I saw one break on a 30 foot steel yacht, Pyxis, I had been following in. Not all the waves were to 3 metres. When the big ones came in, since the track is at an angle to the waves in one section, I had to turn and go with the wave. They had risen up and were very steep. The force twisting the boat into a broach was too great. So I turned and surfed straight down them until they passed. One time I noticed 10 knots on the GPS but I tell you I had other things to focus on. Once the big ones had passed I then turned back onto the track. In the mad mile it was just continuous adjustments and hard work due to being pushed all over the place. If I had known it was going to be like that I would not have gone but the boat had no problems.

The coast guard was very worried for me and so I called as soon as I got through. Despite my own fear at some points, the boat never once gave any indication of being in trouble. I did not like the heaviness of the tiller and it was hard on my arm but I did not have any more than a little light spray come onto the boat. The boat moved around heaps on the waves but I was used to that by from previous days and I could see Pyxis was also being tossed around.

Up the coast, going into Gladstone, 20 knts against outgoing current of about 3 or 4 knots, and into the setting sun, the water was extremely churned with steep waves about 1.5 metres. While the boat was slapped around, again, I only had a little light spray come over into the cockpit and never once did I think the boat was in trouble.

Please note that when the waves were really bad, I had the motor going, I was not actually sailing. So, in summary, I don't have enough competence or experience to compare the Endeavour with the Top Hat, except for that tiller difference but I felt some of the conditions I encountered were quite a test of the Top Hat's capability and I started to understand how they could be sailed around the world.

Mark, I know I have not addressed your question, but it may give a little insight for some readers on what Top Hats can handle.

[storm petrel]

Thanks for that great description.

I have had my Tophat beating into 30-35 knot breezes with breaking 2-3m swells, constantly sprayed from water lifted from the wave tops by the wind and with both side decks continually awash due to the heel angle and because she was constantly punching through waves. It was pretty hard work but Storm Petrel never gave me a minute's concern; she just powered through with double reefed main and storm jib. Not sure if I would have been as confident in an Endeavour and I guess that is why I asked what you thought.

Cheers,
Mark

[Troppo]

Mark, I reckon that is serious weather - and you just say it was "pretty hard work"! I am thinking of some of the stuff I went through and adjusted it up to the wind and breaking waves you had and WOW, that is freaky stuff to be sailing in. The Top Hat is a surprising boat but I am happy to miss the surprise of how well they cope in the sort of weather you are talking about.

[bornfreee]

After living on an endeaver i can tell you they are one tough little boat it may even point a little higher than a top hat with a little deeper keel, and the endeaver will pick up speed quicker with a little narrower keel ,surprising is the endeaver really dosnt have a dinghy feel to which you would think with its more modern racing design, the bad things is the spade rudder it just hangs there vulnerable to everything no skeg and they have been known to fall off,
the keel is bolted on not many know this but there is a temp plate you can get which lines up on the keel to show you were the bolts are and there is concrete in the bilge.
Another plus is the high bridge deck which makes water hard to get below and of course you get the hatch as a bonus if you are an old feela and dont like bending down, hatches were got rid of as they cost money to make so both compass and formit went with the solid top but very vulnerable low, or non existent bridge deck but there is a huge following on the race circut all over Australia on any given weekend with the endeavers mostly sporting brand new sails they really do sail well but after saying that the tophat in my opinion is the better heavy weather ocean boat if bulit proper like the mark 1 and 2

[storm petrel]

G'day Bill,

Good to hear from you. I agree that Endeavors were, and still are, fun 'round the cans boats'. I did some harbour sailing on a 26 many years ago but have not sailed a 27. From memory the 26 lacked headroom for a tall bugger like me but otherwise it was a capable, fun boat - especially under spinnaker. I also agree that the lack of a bridge deck is the worst feature of the Tophat design - a disaster waiting to happen.

Cheers,
Mark

[Troppo]

I am unsure exactly what bit is being referred to as the 'bridge deck'. Why is it a problem on the Top Hat?

Does it have anything to do with the way the cockpit is made so it looks like if a wave dumped in, some would flow out the outboard well and the rest would flow into the cabin if the washboards weren't fitted?