Lets get to the bottom of this.

[Tales]

A few months ago we were staying at Queenscliff Cruising Yacht Club on Tales and I met a yachty who had lived on a houseboat in the UK many years ago.
One of his neighbours at that time also living on a houseboat was Angus Primrose who he got to know.
He couldn't tell me a lot about Angus so I decided to look on the web and have attached what I found.

Gipsy Moth IV Designers - ukyachty
It would be interesting to hear more about the designers and I've been searching the internet without luck. I believe they were Angus Primrose and John Illingworth. Would be interested in reading any biographies about these men. What do we know?
#862905 - 31/10/2005 08:39

" Offshore " by John Illingworth, 5th ed 1963, pub Allard Coles would be a good place to start
#863315 - 31/10/2005 15:27

Thanks - thats a start. Now for Angus Primrose. Just found an obituary from 1980 because he tragically died as 'Demon of Hamble' sank. Did anyone write a biography?
#864687 - 01/11/2005 20:03

I saw the conversations above, and thought I had better join in... Before I go too far, I should say I dont know as much about the whole thing as I ought to. Its one of those things you don’t appreciate at the time. But having said that, you are correct about GMIV being designed by Illingworth and Primrose. I believe my father was responsible for most of the design, with John Illingworth being primarilly resoponsible for the rig design, as was the norm in the design office. And you are corect about Angus being lost at sea in 1980. And as far as I know there have only been a few articles in the yachting press about him (See Classic Boat magazine by Ian Dear, not sure about the date right now), and allmost certainly no biography written (that I now about anyway). The one thing I do know about the whole project is that Angus and Sir Francis did not exactly see eye to eye. I maybe seeing things from the Primrose side of the fence, but I think Angus was pretty happy when the whole thing was over. The biggest falling out was when GMIV reached Austrailia, and Angus got a telegram saying that he had "proper designers design an new keel profile". Angus's reply was simple: "Just get on with it. If you've only reached Austrailia, she's not even run in yet". I think the rest is history. Having said all that, the one thing that really did make Dads blood boil was seeing GMIV, or any boat for that matter, being put in concrete. He would have been really happy to see her in the condition she is now (apart from the addition to the keel and rudder...!)
I hope this all helps a bit.
Dan Primrose
#874195 - 11/11/2005 18:08



The Old Rendcombian Society Newsletter
April 1981 - 7th Issue

Angus Primrose (1938 - 1944) - October 1980
The following article is reproduced from 'The Times' with due acknowledgements:-
Mr. Angus Primrose, a British yachtsman, was presumed drowned last night after being swept from his sinking yacht in heavy seas off the United States. The last person to see him alive was Miss Erica Dodson, a British dental surgeon, who said he sacrificed himself for her. Mr. Primrose, aged 53, made sure she was safely on a life raft as his 33ft yacht, the 'Demon of Hamble', was caught by a storm. "He went for another raft, which fell on top of him", she said yesterday. "That was the last I saw of him. The yacht then went down." Miss Dodson, aged 34, from Redhill, Surrey was spotted by a United States navy ship yesterday, drifting 180 miles off the South Carolina coast after four days on the raft. The tragedy happened as severe gales swept the area, which is close to the 'Bermuda Triangle', a region renowned for mysterious disasters.
Mr. Primrose, an experienced ocean yachtsman, and a well known yacht designer, sailed the Demon of Hamble across the Atlantic this summer in the Observer single handed race, finishing thirty fourth. He was joined by Miss Dodson and intended selling the boat once they reached Florida, according to Mr. Bill Dixon, an assistant at Hamble, Hampshire boatyard.

The following account, by the yachting correspondent of the 'Daily Telegraph' is reproduced with due acknowledgements:-
Angus Primrose was one of Britain's leading yacht designers and an experienced ocean-racing yachtsman. He was married with two young children and lived at Burlesdon near Southampton. He had spent several weeks in Newport after the single-handed transatlantic race because of his involvement with the Lionheart Challenge for the America's Cup. During the 1976 transatlantic race, Mr. Primrose was forced to retire after his yacht capsized and was dismasted. He was co-designer, with the late John Illingworth, of several internationally successful ocean racers, including Sir Francis Chichester's Gipsy Moth IV

Although the design of the Top Hat is generally credited to John Illingworth it would appear that he was probably responsible for the rig only. In Australia we do not even use the rig as designed if you look at the drawing of Black Billy.
Can anyone else add to the story?
Tom

[karl010203]

That's really interesting...

[Shaun]

I dont have anything to add to the story. However i have a copy of "Offshore" by J.H.Illingworth 5th Edition 1963 (inherited with the boat, when i bought Night Cap).
In it Illingworth makes only a few brief comments on the Top Hats, but describes the J.O.G Junior Offshore Group in detail, he writes...
"Our latest contribution to the J.O.G fleet is the design of the Top Hat, with a super sports version called The Cloth Cap. This is a 21ft waterline J.O.G racer with four berths, in moulded ply construction, with a 50 per cent ballast ratio and 285 sq.ft of sail"
he then goes onto to describe various features he thinks important for J.O.G yachts under handling he writes...
Handling - In boats of Top Hats and of Wista's size and type where there is reasonable stability the handling follows very much along the lines which we have indicated elsewhere in this book for larger craft. In fact in re-reading these chapters in the light of J.O.G requirements, i came across no important differences.


A PDF file of "Black Billy" can be found here http://tophatyachts.googlegroups.com/we ... kbilly.pdf

Shaun

[Phillip]

Evening All,

The information already posted agrees with my research so far, with the exception that Illingworth was definitely involved with the construction of the first 10 ply-moulded Top Hats in Melbourne, this from the builder Rob Legg who had drawings with Illingworth's hand drawn sketches and amendments on (all thrown out in 2008 ).

Even so, Primrose may have been involved with the Huon Pine timber Top Hats built in Tasmania (number unknown, but possibly 2 plus).

What we really need to find is Bakers TOBY JUG (this may be the design pre Top Hats) in which he sailed from Melbourne to Perth (via Sydney/Darwin) single handed. His trip was one of the first around Australia by a private yacht and possibly the first single handed, so if anybody knows of TOBY JUG please let me known. Dimensions were smaller than a Top Hat, but similar.

Phillip
SEAKA

[Tales]

Phillip,
Found this in 'Sailing Boats of the World' by Rhonda Budd' 1974.
They describe Toby Jug as hard chine and a new design although designed by Illingworht and Primrose, marketed by Illingworth and Associates. It has a transom hung rudder. There maybe innaccuracies in the text but I get the feeling that it is later than the Top Hat.
Cheers,
Tom

[Phillip]

Tom,

Well done

I will email Rob Legg today and see if he can confirm that this is the TOBY JUG that Baker built.

I will let you all know a soon as I hear back from Rob.

Phillip
SEAKA

[surrealbass]

Hi Guys,
if you take a close look at the lines drawings for Illingworth's yacht Myth of Malham you will see some striking similarities to the Tophat. He had that yacht drawn by Laurent Giles with ideas and suggestions of his own to create a fairly devastatingly successful ocean racer in the early fifties changing a few views of what makes a good offshore racer in the world, particularly the plumb bow and light displacement and using the rules to advantage regarding rigging and sail area. Note particularly the lines aft, transom and the forefoot of the keel. For a bit of history he was based in Sydney at the end of the war where he was in on the original wager behind the Sydney Hobart I believe that Illingworth stopped into Port Philip on the way back from the first Sydney Hobart and made friends with sailors there that went on later to ask him about a suitable offshore racer for their club. Maybe Robb Legg has more to add here. On his return to the UK he was involved heavily in the Junior Offshore Group, being president at their first meeting and designed small yachts that would be suitable for the events held by that association- one of them being the Tophat! I believe that is how it all ties in from what I have been able to glean, when this yacht was designed he either had the Port Philip people in mind or let them have this design when approached. It would seem that the design was at least initially for the UK JOG which is what Black Billy was built for.the notes in Yachting Monthly(or World? have to look) certainly don't mention Australia although they are comprehensive with other info. As far as who did what in the design office it can only be guesses but most reports seem to have Illingworth doing the rigs and sailplans along with development(performance) ideas with Angus Primrose doing the calculations and designing the hulls although to what extent nobody knows

just a bit to throw into the fire- don't ask for a detailed bibliography for goodness sake as it would take a month of Sundays that I would rather be working on the boat on lol

Chris
Joylee

[Phillip]

Afternoon All,

From what Rob Legg has said to me, Illingworth was involved heavily in the development of the Australian version. Remember the English (or home built Australian) were cold moulded and Robb's were hot moulded. Anyway Rob's comment was that the drawings he threw out were anointed with Illingworth’s' corrections and amendments.

Phillip
SEAKA

[surrealbass]

Hi,
The bit from Robb Legg ties in with what I read on the French Wiki site about Illingworth's involvement in the design team...

John H. Illingworth is a naval architect British , born 1903 and died in 1980 . Also a captain in the Royal Navy (Note: Officer Mechanic, he sailed for several years on submarines), it is often considered the founding father of modern ocean racing.
In 1937 , he is drawn by the famous British architect Laurent Giles Maid of Malham, one of the first sails rigged 'top' (that is to say that the stay of the headsail up until 'at the top of the mast), with a wide front triangle, which has become the norm for most current monohull. This boat won his first race and number of the following. The ideas and style of Laurent Giles, who was very close Illingworth, have an important influence on all subsequent creation of John Illingworth as a naval architect.
Captain John Illingworth is then to Hong Kong and the Pacific during the Second World War . Once peace returns, it is Sydney , where he proposes to create an ocean race, which is already in the United States and Europe : the Sydney to Hobart which starts on 26 December 1945 ; Illingworth is Skipper then Rummy. The race in 2004 celebrated its 60th edition and part traditionally the day after Christmas.
Once back in England, Illingworth was elected commodore of the RORC , Royal Ocean Racing Club, where he will promote offshore racing, the modern version. He is particularly interested in the rigging, an area in which it appears very early innovator, and recommends such travel light rigs elongated, reduced accommodation.
The Myth of Malham sailboat, he does draw by Laurent Giles to his specifications, and illustrates his ideas triggered the controversy when released in water nearly vertical bow, light displacement, Back truncated freeboard important Reverse sheer, everything is the opposite of the classical trend. Olin Stephens criticize severely. However, this boat won the Fastnet in 1947 , and the Admiral's Cup newly created in 1957 .
John Illingworth opens a naval architecture firm in the 1950s, in association with Angus Primrose, and orders flow, especially France. Systematizing the approach taken by Laurent Giles Myth of Malham, John Illingworth becomes a specialist in the general conception and design of the rigging of sailboats racing operator in the early stages of design all the benefits they can derive from rules optimizing metric tonnage of the main vessel (dimensions and measurement points defined by the formulas for calculating the tonnage of disability, or 'rating' of a sailboat race), while Angus Primrose is the talented designer of the hull. It will soon imitated in the systematic rules of tonnage by a whole new generation of architects who largely amplify the phenomenon in the late '60s, leading to all the excesses of the IOR (see the sadly famous Fastnet race in 1979) and the multiplication of racing yachts ultralight and very low wetted surface, but the poor quality marine weather box.
The result of this fruitful collaboration between Illingworth & Primrose a series of famous sailing ships, built mostly in the unit, sometimes in small quantities, and whose main characteristic is to combine aesthetics and performance without sacrificing the character ' Marine 'of these units (seakeeping and handling qualities in rough weather, deck layouts and accommodation remarkably adapted to life in ocean racing). Will emerge not necessarily the lot downwind, and some of them relatively unstable in high winds these gaits, the creations of Illingworth & Primrose prove very formidable, however walking upwind in the breeze, conditions choice they make all the difference in their stiffness to the canvas (the ability to bring the sail area without heel excessively), their ability to shake the wind (angle of ascent) and their power in rough seas.
Among the most famous are:
Myth of Malham
Belmore
the Maïca
Gerfalcon
Brigantine
Glénan (for the Nautical Center of the same name)
Esquirol
Monk of Malham
Top-Hat
Merle Of Malham
Blue Charm
Outlaw
Primevere
Maryka (Arabel III)
Oryx
Gipsy Moth IV (for around the world sailor Sir Francis Chichester)

John H. Illingworth is the author of a book on naval architecture and ocean racing (Offshore), and an autobiographical book (The Malham Story).

[ edit ]Source

John Ilingworth had retired in the hinterland of Nice. Before drawing sailboats, has designed numerous motorboats. He has participated in numerous racing motorboat (before the war) and has won numerous cuts. It was after his near invincibility in a motorboat that is has been draw sailboats (just over 1100), designed primarily for racing at sea among others the father who has trained Glénan generations of instructors at the center of Nautical Glenans
Daniel and Alain Allisy Glicksman, 30 years of sailing [ retail editions ]

apologies for the google translation!


Chris
Joylee

[bearmcnally]

Hi everybody

Nearly a "who dunit"
have enclosed a couple of pictures of the mentioned yachts to help us followers of this topic