Insurance

[Steve D]

Hi All,

I am just about to buy a mk1 top hat and looking at insurance companies.
The only one that I have found that does not insist on a full out of water survey, is a company called New Wave Marine insurance.
The only reviews I can find on them are on their own website!
Has anyone had any dealings with them?

Cheers
Steve D

[Miker]

Steve, it may be quicker to post this to the FaceBook page, if you use FB.

Insurance for Top Hats is usually pretty easy. I'm with NRMA, have been for ages. Not sure if they'll accept an in water survey any longer. They used to.

Happy hunting..

[steve]

Hi Steve D,

Several years ago I insured with Youi for a year. They did not require a survey. I do not know what their present requirements are.

[Steve D]

Thanks for the feedback.
I'm not on FB, but have gone with New Wave for now.
I will get her out of the water in the new year to do some work, and once surveyed I will look at the more traditional providers.
Cheers
Steve D

[Democritus]

I do realise many will know already what I am about to write but some may not..or know 'this' but not "that"...so please...'bear with me'...a five minute read may save someone the time I spent..2 days..chasing insurance...filling forms...chasing marinas and shipwrights and surveyors (btw going rate $25/foot)..plus slipping of course...if you can get spiped without insurance...it's like climbing aboard a merry-go-around. .

I will not be the only one finding this vessel- insurance situation...the 'circularity'...to insure, survey...to survey, slip it...to slip it must be insured...to insure must be surveyed and around and around we go. I found insurers to be reticent...e.g. NRMA person abrupt and 'if not insured before we are not interested'. I have 4 cars insured with them...still not interested. New Wave 3rd Party only. and for that much dearer than Anchorage comprehensive. Some overseas place insures but at $38,000 minimum so you pay premium on say $5000 as on $38,000..Youii turned me right off when I tried to change insurance from NRMA (in Gold Coast all panel beaters I asked don't want to deal with NRMA "too dificult" . "Too difficult" to rip off?...or too difficult by nature'. Decades ago I was an insurance investigator and the bloke at Youii was just a smart-axxxd jerk...After 20 minutes of 'going nowhere I gave up...after decades of insurance with NRMA, and understanding risk, I don't need your cxxp. It just helps if can get a car (or boat...??) fixed without travelling the nation for it...

My daughter is insured with Youii and thinks them ok...has had two claims on car but granted 3rd party. BTW insurance companies may claim otherwise but they are connected...so if you looked for a quote...they can all find that and the information given to each one ...On Police records however things got more expensive for the people employing me when police were required to stop giving out information to PI's and had to 'log on' with a reason. The brown paper bags got thicker and as I was against corruption I was no longer invited to the Chinese meal and cash payoffs...back on track...

My suggestion is 'Anchorage Marine' at Nth Sydney. I recommend 'Greg Fullerton'.

Anchorage requires a survey (insurance survey) but can allow acceptable top survey to get you insured then hull survey when on slipway. It seems logical that if it fails the latter worst case is cancelled insurance. Anchorage was cheapest...it has some deficiency in that engine and electrics are not insured and a $1000 excess ..

One might argue that engine and electrics should be maintained properly and not cause claim...but when you see a twin turbo'd 1000Hp power boat screaming across waves, with a cockpit full of drunks falling over as the boat crashes down...an actual scenario......then maybe breaking down or catching fire or 'whatever'...would you pay out for it?

All insurance is based in good faith and due diligence. That means maintaining it to close to surveyed situation and sailing and mooring it wisely. Insurance is a money pool based in risk. Unfortunately your risk and my risk ..our persona's and behaviour are themselves also part of a 'pool' in human experience which the underwriters consider.

The world's richest, or wealthy enough, man Warren Buffett bought insurance companies owing to the stacks of cash they had which he successfully invested elsewhere...Insurers also insure with each other to offset losses. That doesn't mean even the largest cannot go belly up. Lloyds nearly did that.

In Australia Long ago GIO was GOVERNMENT insurance office. It was also an insurer' of last resort'....If you could not get insurance elsewhere GIO (now NOT Gv't) would almost certainly insure you.

The Gv't had neglected to put aside super. Back then it was $180M in debt . With the rat cunning political aspirants are infused it killed two birds with one stone....it sold off the insurance as "GIO' That relieved it of obligation on policies and replenished the coffers. We no longer have an insurer of last resort and the promise charges would not increase lasted about a microsecond.

Investigating some liability scenarios during Australian bi centenary I discovered some boats in Qld were being given the 'ok' when not meeting regs....that arose from my investigating once measuring stair widths on a newish commercial cruiser after an injury...but there are frauds on a massive scale as well as floods fire etc...The insurance pool refill sees increases in premiums across the board. The old question is can I afford NOT to insure.

If you insure for agreed value it can still be contested so the value might be required at point of insuring it, the value in the opinion of a shipwright or reputable dealer.
It's unlikely a well maintained tophat can be insured for anything like its real costs in renewal.

Rigging. 5 years 'max' but with certification from a reputable rigger, up to 10 years. After that on my experience you'd be 'pushing it' ...and when someone says 'insured with original (checked) rigging" is it for 3rd party only?. I was advised that even though rigging 'ok' best to renew it...so I did, I guess it also gives the underwriters some confidence you do maintain your vessel.

Logically well kept, good condition rigging should not have to be replaced but insurers are behind desks, even if themselves sailors and work on a risk-basis. Is what looks ok moored, ok in heavy weather?...which is where the risk surges. All insurance classes attract scammers and those scammers result in harsher regs for the virtuous as well as the crooks. I remember well the Greek Back scammers...running into each others cars and claiming on 'whiplash' saw everyone regarded as a potential scammer... As the pool level falls premiums increase.

Insurance is not meant, and I mean absolutely, to be a profit maker for the insured...it is an indemnification...'to put your situation back as it was'. For example if you insure your home for R and R it will be rebuilt. If it burns down and you want cash not a rebuild, you will get the depreciated value of the house as well as possibly a spell in the 'can'... I know people who have profited well but then they bought low and insured high...thus some companies ask 'purchase price' and will expect you to prove how your item was bought at "X" and is now valued at '3x'...even Australia post asks such questions for an insured parcel.

I could recommend some honest people in Sydney prepared to slip without insurance but would not do so without their express permission.

As with any similarly built boat your tophat may well be rotting in its core...Foam has limited life even without water ingress...Tessellated balsa and ply also have peculiarities. It is even just droplets of fresh water which get the rot underway...so every aspect of the core areas should be solidly 'waterproof'.....every fixing even if just a screw, ...every crack,,,every join... Salt water "tuns timber to stone' over some time and the Teredo worm finds that 'Gorgonised' result to be tasty.

I have read some bizarre fantasies and claims about repairs including using vacuum pump to boil-off the water...I would be reluctant to sell a boat with core rot...I'd be concerned at results in a collision and also possible injury on 'break through but if a new owner can properly repair it and save me $5-$12k and lose half that on the sale well...the sun may yet shine on vendor and buyer.

Boats can be a hairshirt experience...unless often used...from 'use', maybe even as a 'project' comes some balance in pleasure Vs cost. Insurance is more than an indemnification for one's self in this sense...it also protects an uninsured other....which might be you.

[Democritus]

Useful information here...https://www.permagard.co.uk/advice/trea ... f%20timber.

[Democritus]

I admit to being annoyed by anchorage....why?...having fulfilled (delayed by shipwright and no urgency mentioned by anchorage) the requirements for survey and mooring and spent some thousands ...I presented the survey six weeks or so later and found myself dealing with a different person. The insurance had doubled from the quote (+/-)/ I was not happy and queried it.

I was then told QBE had 'changed its algorithms'...what??? doubling the premium!! that's quite a boost..

The insurance does not cover engine in case of failure and as I recall...rigging. The no longer than annual' maintenance of the mooring is an 'absolute' in being conditional to the policy....The up-front cost on any claim is $1000.00. Whilst an improvement on the price from another 'recommended broker' who had an almost identical premium for 3rd party only one has to now think rationally about the value of insurance. Certainly it makes getting the boat out of the water possible at 'denial unless insured' places but I think I'd like to hear about insurance claims issues...any one can give experiences there?

[Democritus]

Hi All,

I am just about to buy a mk1 top hat and looking at insurance companies.
The only one that I have found that does not insist on a full out of water survey, is a company called New Wave Marine insurance.
The only reviews I can find on them are on their own website!
Has anyone had any dealings with them?

Cheers
Steve D

HI...have a question for Steve...how can I email him....tried it as 'member' but it didn't work ...Are you there steve?...or someone who can assist.My regards