Loose Tiller

[Shaun]

From: fullandby (Original Message) Sent: 27/08/2008 04:47
Hello gang,

I would be gateful for opinions on a little problem with my tiller.
The tiller on my MK 2 has a few degrees of play from side to side. The play does not seem to be in the rudder shaft itself. The rudder shaft has a split brass block at the top with a keyway in the shaft. There is a bolt through the split which tightens the block on the shaft. There is a stainless steel plate either side of this, also held by the bolt, and the tiller is attached to this. This allows the tiller to be lifted up and down. I imagine this is a pretty standard arrangement on a top hat.
I have tightend the bolt up as much a possible, and made sure the key is fully engaged, but there is still some play and the tiller is hard to move up and down.
Someone has suggested using a metallic epoxy to take up any wear in the system.
Has anyone encountered this problem and solved it?

Thanks

Bart



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From: longdeepthinker Sent: 27/08/2008 20:46
G`day,
Re your tiller play.
I had the same issue on my mark2.

I found that there was a bush at the top end of the tiller shaft.The bush appeared to be made from a plastic type of material.This bush removed easily but disintegrated into several pieces on removal.

I measured the diameter of the tiller shaft and the internal diameter of the shaft tube and I was able to purchase a new bronze (brass?) bush off the shelf from a local marine engineering company.

I did the replacement of the bush whilst on the slip with the rudder shaft dropped out of the way, however, it is likely that you could do it with the rudder shaft in place but taking the measurements will be more difficult ( but that is how I measured them).
Also, it will be tricky removing the old bush with the shaft in place.

Fitting the new bush with the shaft in place may be better as the new bush will be more likely to align correctly.

A word of warning.

The new bush that I purchased was apparently longer than the old bush as when I knocked it into place it was binding on the rudder shaft. Fortunately, I was able to get a wrench on it and tease it out a short distance until the rudder shaft was free again.

As a result the bush stands a little above the housing.I do not find this to be a problem.

The above is my experience with my vessel and it is possible that your set up is different as there are so many variables on Tophats.

I did not find it a difficult task but as with every job on a boat it was fiddly.

I trust the above is helpful.

Regards,

John Maloney
"Aeolian"
Camden Haven River"
NSW
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From: TalesS435 Sent: 28/08/2008 19:23
John,
Bronze on stainless steel in a salt water environment?
How is is standing up?
Cheers,
Tom

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From: longdeepthinker Sent: 28/08/2008 22:44
Hi Tom,

The fitting has only been on since last year so early days yet.

Before making any further comment I just want to state that I am not an expert on these matters,simply a fellow Tophat owner relating my own experiences with my vessel.
I am definitely not making recommendations.

As mentioned in the original post the tiller side plates appear to be stainless bolted to what may be brass (bronze?).The key in the fitting is apparently also stainless.The bolt through the fitting on my vessel is stainless.

When I dismantled the fitting on my vessel I did not find any deterioration of the metals,I guess that my boat is around 20 to 30 years old.

As a matter of interest Tom,I have in the past removed the lower rudder fitting and it appears to be made from a bronze type material,very heavy and solid.
The point that I found interesting is that the fitting has embedded in it what appears to be a stainless steel pin on which the rudder sits.There was no significant deterioration of the fitting or the pin.

However,the reason for removing the lower fitting was that the bolts through the fitting were completely deteriorated and on removal these bolts fell to pieces.
Six bolts all in bits.I still have the bits as it is of interest to fellow boaties.I was fortunate to find this problem as it was not on my list of jobs.

The bolts appeared to have originally been brass(bronze) and were reddish and powdery in appearance.(Those members who have a metallurgical interest can feel free to start a new post on what had happened to the bolts.)
I was only able to obtain stainless steel bolts locally and I was on the slip so time was money.

I spent alot of time and effort trying to determine what type of bolts I should use on the lower rudder fitting.

I received so many opinions that I found it bewildering but we have some fisherman in town who have been around boats for a lifetime and they were bemused at my concern.One comment from one of the local fishermen has stuck with me and I quote,"Listen son,you can put stainless steel bolts in that fitting and you will likely be gone before the bolts".

I do not know if he is right or wrong but I will be 64 next week so if I get to about eighty plus years I promise to follow up this post with an update on this matter!!!!

As I am aging I am reaching the conclusion that I have wasted alot of my time worrying about things that generally do not eventuate.I am making a concious effort to change this behaviour,not always with success.

As a case in point,how many Tophats do members know of that have had the chainplates pull through the deck?

The answer to your question Tom is that you are probably asking the wrong bloke!!

Thanks for all your input to the website Tom,you certainly help to keep it alive and as you have probably guessed this longwinded answer is my effort to do the same.

Tophats are wonderful little boats and I am very glad that I bought mine.I have`nt used it much for sailing but it looks like being a great retirement hobby.

I am on the Camden Haven River,Laurieton, NSW.

It is a very pleasant place for visiting yachts and I would like to invite all members to visit.Feel free to contact me if you are coming here.

I send this post with good humour and a sense of the ridiculous,both very necessary if you are a boat owner!!!

Kind regards to all,

John Maloney
"Aeolian"
Camden Haven River.







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From: Rob Sent: 29/08/2008 04:01
Thanks for the post John,

Is Aeolian moored off the Dunbogan boatshed? We visit (by land) a few times a year, and your port is indeed fabulous, except for the bar which could prove tricky in foul weather.

I'd support the idea that the stainless bolts should prove stable for years to come. Marine grade stainless (316), even submerged, should not begin to corrode for a long time. Stainless bolts are a bit more brittle than brass or bronze. The reddish colour of your old bolts has me stumped - greenish for the copper in the brass. I'd like to know the answer!

Cheers

Rob
Isabella II Pittwater (Mk II)

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From: TalesS435 Sent: 30/08/2008 00:02
Hi Fellas,
There are many types of bronze. The types which are designed for use in seawater are specially formualted to give minimum problems and I would say that the lower bearing for the rudder is in this category.
The red colour in your old bolts is the copper and the other alloys have been etched out earlier on. They have become the anode.
Zinc and tin are both alloying elements in various bronzes especially in bearings hence my interest in your new top bearing.
It's a timely reminder though, I have never looked at the lower bearing or bolts but I will now!
Cheers,
Tom

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From: longdeepthinker Sent: 30/08/2008 00:43
Hello Rob and Tom,
Thanks for your responses.
Aeolian is indeed moored near the Dunbogan boatshed,I have my own mooring which I made and put in place four years ago after bringing my boat home from Manly,Queensland.

I usually refer to Laurieton in my posts as many people have no knowledge of Dunbogan.The area is commonly known as the Camden Haven and is comprised of the three villages of Laurieton,Dunbogan and North Haven.

If you come up again Rob feel free to contact me. There is also one other Tophat on the moorings so if you have the time we can get together.

As for my lower rudder fitting bolts being the colour that they are, you will see that Tom has responded with an explanation and I believe that he is spot on.The zinc has almost certainly leached out over the years as it is the more sacrificial element.

I should point out that whilst I have referred to bolts, they were in fact threaded rod with a nut on both ends.

As you say Tom,a timely reminder and I will certainly be checking the new bolts each time I slip.I only found the problem by chance as I was cleaning around the fitting and noticed one of the nuts move slightly.As they say,the rest is history.
I will be giving them a good hit with a hammer,that should show up any problems and I will likely remove one or two bolts to be sure.

Pleased to hear from you both and perhaps these posts will create further activity on the site.

Regards,

John.



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From: longdeepthinker Sent: 30/08/2008 03:50
Hi Tom,

Thinking about this matter of various metals and how they can deteriorate in the marine environment.

From what we know about the condition of the old bolts from my vessel,is it possible to say if they were brass or bronze?

Also,pardon my ignorance but how can the layperson differentiate between brass and bronze as when new they can look similar?
Do we have to trust the sales outlet?

There is more to this story but I don`t want to labour this point in consideration of the members.

Thanks alot,

John.



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From: fullandby Sent: 31/08/2008 03:55
Thank you for the advice John. I will look at the rudder shaft bush next time I slip.

Regards,

Bart

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From: surrealbass1 Sent: 16/09/2008 18:27
hi gang- just caught up with your discussion on the bolts under water turning red- so far what has been said is right on the money. brass and bronze are alloys of copper using various other metals as an alloy depending on their intended use. as an example what we normally call brass is about 90%copper 10% zinc, good quality marine hardware is generally an alloy of copper and silicone. this has an important bearing on maintainence on boats- if you think of what the sacrificial anode is made of(zinc), you will see that if the anode is worn out, too small or even missing then something else will be sacrificed to the gods of galvanic corrosion!! unfortunately this is usually the skin fittings and propellor- all fairly vital stuff! so if you see your prop or any bronze fittings turning pink it is vital to check that your anodic protection is up to scratch and beware you can go too far the other way and have too much also this is the reason never to use normal brass on a yacht zinc is just not safe to use due to the zinc, definately in seawater! i nearly lost joylee when a professionally fitted seacock failed when the BRASS barb FELL OFF due to extreme galvanic corrosion in a very short time, would not wish the experience on anyone!
ps my tophat was made in about 1971 by a boat builder in sa for his own use and is more a work of art than a yacht, sails beautifully in any conditions and is my absolute pride and joy! would like to hear if there are any other timber tophats out there, also i have a copy of the original review of the tophat design and the first one made in the uk that was published in yachting monthly in 1961 along with the lines and sailplan drawings! when my laptop is going again i will post them up- very interesting reading!!!

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From: coldmoulded Sent: 17/09/2008 14:13
gday surreelbass i also have a timber top hat circa 1964 in Geelong. i dont know the history of the boat or where it was built but it has plaques for competing melbourne to launceston race in 1964.
she was called "juliette" at that time, but when i bought her she was called "leander". i bought her four years ago sailed her for a while but when she came up on the slip i found some serious rot. amongst other problems and of course the deeper i delved i found the transom rotten, stern post and around two chain plates rotten, and several other patches of dry rot, not to mention the cabin.
to cut a long story short over the last three years i have been on hard stand and laminated a new transom, sternpost, rebuilt the cockpit, replaced fore deck, strengthened decck beams, made an entire new cabin top, sheathed the hull in dynel and epoxy after patching with new ply laminations. re-painted the oregon mast and installed a kubota 14hp 3 cylinder diesel motor made use of a fair bit of wasted space inside the boat.
i look to be floating some time this summer.
definitly a labour of love but i have learned a great deal from it and the end result i think will outlast me. cant wait to sail her again!
cheers
Mark
P.S. "joylee" looks like a beaut. ii saw a picture on this site. very nice mate.

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From: longdeepthinker Sent: 19/09/2008 01:58
Hi Mark,

Great to hear of these early timber Tophats and wonderful dedication on your part to restore the yachts.Well done.

John.

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From: coldmoulded Sent: 20/09/2008 12:58
thanks john .
im very interested in the line drawings that surrealbass has of the cold moulded tophats. would be great to check em out.
mark